Australian Concert Bands

Hey guys

Are both Unley and Grainger bands from SA?

Cheers

Ben

No.

Unley concert band (www.ucb.org.au) is from Adelaide, and their form is what other people have talked about in previous posts.

Grainger Wind Symphony (www.graingerwindsymphony.asn.au) is from Melbourne and from all accounts, from other musicians anyway, is not strictly a community band. They are made up of semi-professional and professional musicians from all over Melbourne and recently joined the VBL in 2007 just so they could compete in the A grade at the Melbourne Nationals. When people speak about Grainger in Melbourne it is generally with some sort of awe as they tend to play some of the exceedingly difficult band music. They are regarded as one of the finest wind symphonies/concert bands outside of the military.

As I understand it they were invited to 'play' in the A grade so that the A grade section wouldn't become a one band concert.

It's interesting to read on this forum about how the VBL are trying to focus more on the concerts bands.
At the Vic state championships in ballarat last weekend, I happened to purchase a program (they were $2 - rip-off) anyway, this is what the front page said.
VICTORIAN BRASS BAND CHAMPIONSHIPS.
There was no reference on that front page to concert bands, even though they were mentioned on the inside.

Also, it seems they could not get the date right. In the concert band section of the program it says the date is Saturday 24th August. It was actually the 23rd. We made the joke that we should come back the next day, since it did say the 24th. It's the same thing with the brass bands. It says the 25th when it should be the 24th.

So much for the VBL trying to focus more on concert bands, we don't even get a mention on the front page of the program at the state championships. and they should make up their minds as to what the exact date is, or just not stuff up the program.

Even though the program was done by the Royal South Strret Society, I still believe that the VBL has something to do with it. The least they could have done was given the concert bands a mention on the front page. Reading it you would think that it is only what it says it is, until you open the program and actually read that there are concert bands performing as well.

-Donna
Flute player @SACB

One other thing I was meaning to ask.

How can it be that interstate band can compete in and win other state championships. This just doesn't seem right. I know it's the done thing and it's allowed, but it just doesn't seem right. E.g, Unley from SA winning the B grade section of the Vic states. Do bands have to be registered with other states bands league to be able to compete in that states state championships. If so, do they need to registered under the same conditions as the bands from that state. E.g, would a SA band have to be registered with the VBL and would they have to registered under the same conitions as the Vic bands. All band should have to abide by the same rules and not be different just because they come from a different state, or because they have been "invited".

Like with Unley competing in A grade in SA, but B grade in Vic. Now I have read the previous posts in this forum and I do understand what people are saying about this. But I firmly believe that once a band competes in a certain section/grade, that they should stay in that section/grade for a full 12 months. This would stop bands from competing in one section in one state and in a different section in another, no matter the standard. To say that A grade in SA is a grade lower than Vic A grade is a joke.

Remember at the Nationals (sorry to mention Nationals but it's part of my point) that in the B grade concert band section there was an overseas band competing (I think they were from Germany, but that's not important). We we told that they were not allowed to win or receive any prizes because they were not from Australia. So why doesn't the same thing happen with states, in every state, but on a state level. I think you understand my point.

My opinion.

-Donna
flute player @SACB

Hi Donna Jo!

Welcome to the forum!

My opinion is that the States are for bands registered in that state! If 'out of state' bands want to compete, they should be able to and recieve adjudication, and maybe even a point score, but not recieve any prizes.

You dont want to see bands travelling to other states to 'poach' titles. Am not aware of this happening, so dont get me wrong!!!

But its no good for a NSW band to be able to claim Victorian (for example) A Grade champions!!!

As for the different levels of grading, ahhhh, the old bugbear!!! Quite often the topic comes up that the National Band Association of Australia needs to have more control over the grading system to create a more level playing field.

In regards to your earlier post, i totally agree!! It almost seems like the Brass Band Association of Australia (or state assoc's) with Concert Bands Tacked On At The End. This might seem a bit harsh, and i can understand that this might be historically based with most of the oldest running bands being Brass Bands - saying that, Kempsey District Silver Band is 120 years old, and are a concert band (but were brass!)

I must admit though in NSW it seems to have gotten a bit better over the last couple of years.

Trying to get more focus / exposure on Concert Bands in Australia was one of the main reasons i kicked off the forum. We have a few band association executives as members of the forum (VBL, NSWBA) who hopefully have a read of the different topics and might take some stuff back to their relevant associations!!

Looking forward to hearing other members thoughts!

Well a SA band won the Vic state B grade Concert band section, so that could be an example of "poaching".

I had suggested that our band from Vic travel to SA for their states next year, but we never travel interstate as it is too expensive, which is the reason why we only ever do the Nationals in Melbourne. I only made that suggestion because it's something that we "should" do, but we won't.

donna
flute player @SACB

Oh dear...

Bands have been visiting interstate contests since the Year Dot. For example, if you look at the histories of South Street or the Tanunda contests you will see that entries have been received from all over Australia since the earliest days. This has continued to modern times. At the SA State Championships in 2007 there were 2 Victorian bands and one Queensland band. Kew will contest the NSW State A Grade Championship next weekend - and they are tipped to win! If they do, this would not be the first time that a NSW A Grade Champion Band resided in another state.

Entry for a any State contest is really quite easy: be registered with the Association body in your state, pay the entry fee, and make the effort to get your band there. Hopefully you might even play well enough to impress the adjudicator. People at Unley tell me that they paid their entry fees like everyone else, so why shouldn't they complete for a prize like everyone else?

The SA Band Assoiation has welcomed interstate bands at its contests for many years. From what I know of Unley's capability, I would suggest that the presence of that band would have enhanced the Victorian event.

Most people know that Open A Grade Concert is the domain of university bands, whole-city bands, or specialist auditioned groups. Make no mistake - no matter what the SABA calls its top concert band grade, the community bands in that grade are B GRADE. End of story.

It would be great to see other interstate bands - like Southern Area Concert Band - make the effort to come to Adelaide for a contest. All would be welcomed with open arms.

Jubey

Point taken and understood jubey,

Having been a member (now former member) of the Southern Area Concert Band for the last 20 years I can say that we have actually done some interstate trips.

In 1990 the SACB won the B grade section of the National Band Championships in Melbourne and a decision was made not long after to do a trip to Adelaide to try to defend out title. In 1991 we made that trip to Adelaide and although we came second the trip was a great success. My memories of that trip was playing in some barn at the Adelaide showgrounds while being hit by a cold change and having some other bands being asked to stop because the adjudicators couldn't hear the band over the noise of the rain hitting the tin roof up above. In 1992 we then traveled to Sydney to again compete in the Nationals and came third.

My personal position on this issue is that bands should be allowed to travel where they want, and compete where they want. Since the organisational structures of each states banding association are similar it isn't hard for interstate (or even international) bands to fulfill the registration requirements asked of by other band associations.

However I can understand the concerns raised and while I get a whiff of 'state pride', maybe it will serve as a catalyst for bands to lift there standards in order to match who they are expected to compete against. I am aware of Unley's reputation, and good on them for making the trip.

At the end of the day we are all a community of musicians and I would hope that bands would be supportive of each others efforts in music making and competing and see fit to give credit where credit is due. We are all members of bands because we support the community of banding and association, and it is because of being in bands that we are continually expanding our musical experiences, like having the opportunity to travel and see others play.

I understand where you are coming from. But even if other bands have been competing in other state championships since year dot, does that make it right? It's the principle of the matter here. . Now I'm not saying this just because I feel that our band got a raw deal or that we feel ripped-off or sore losers of anything like that. I'm arguing this point simply due to fairness, and what goes on is not fair, it's ethically wrong. I do agree thought that it is good for the standards of the bands, it makes them aware of the standards of bands from other states, especially when it comes to the Nationals, we have some idea of what the other bands are like.

But bands of differing states should not be competing at state level in any other state than their own. Again it's the principle of the matter and I feel that it is my duty to do something about this. It's for the good of the bands. Just because it's the done thing does not make it right. I shall be having a word with the VBL in the next few days to get their side of things and to put forward my case.
I shall let you all know how things go.

-Donna. flute player @ SACB

Do that means bands from other countries shouldn't be attending our Nationals as well?

Perhaps we should fortify ALL boarders - national and state...

Seriously though - it may be better to avoid making the suggestion that something that is totally acceptable under the contest rules of State Associations is, in some way, unethical. After all, we're not playing for sheepstations here.

Kind regards,
Jubey

Deary me,

Here Ben is trying to get concert bands all the recognition that they deserve (many thanks Ben) and promote concert band cooperation and all we can do is bicker and fight with each other. But I was expecting this, unfortunately, despite a very nice message from a Victorian bandsman following Unley's VBL competition results.

Unley, in travelling to Ballarat, did it with the best intentions for our band and for banding in our state, of course and endeavoured to do our best in a grade we felt most suited. We competed under all the rules and guidelines set out by VBL with music suitable for the grade and in the grade that was most suitable for us. I believe that the registration guidelines for VBL are similar to SABA (as they would have to be to comply with ANBC standards) so I don't see how registration should be a factor. However, we didn't come with the expectation that we would win (could, yes, but not would). We knew the competition would be tough (particularly since there is a common discussion about South Aust A Grade translating into Victorian B Grade. This is pretty accurate when considering the standard of bands such as Grainger.) The bands competing in A Grade at SABA competitions are all National B Grade bands. This is a fact as Jubey states. Surely this should do Victoria proud that the standard of playing in the VBL community is so high?

The fact that UCB won in Ballarat was just icing on the cake of having the opportunity to compete against some excellent competition.

The opportunity for bands to travel to interstate band competitions has great merit in many ways, despite Donna's apparent views to the contrary. Many state championships struggle to gain entries in many grades, struggling with one or two bands at best in each grade. South Australia's State Championships usually have one or two entries in each grade at best most years, this year being an exception in A grade concert and brass, especially in concert bands. This year the A Grade Brass competition was supplemented by a Victorian band, who SABA welcomed with open arms. In previous years, VIC and QLD bands competed in both A and B grade brass. This enhanced the competition and no-one in South Australia was whinging because they had lost to an interstate band. The best band won on the day. It is a common thing in South Australia to have interstate competitors. Box Hill, Hawthorn and Brisbane Brass have travelled to the SABA competition in 2007 and 2008. A tuba player from Brisbane Excelsior travelled to Adelaide to compete in our solo event in 2007 and won. And let's not mention the onslaught every year of Australian bands at the New Zealand competitions and vice versa - Dalewool Auckland have won our national title before. Pelorus Trust won the B Grade National Title in Brisbane this year. Should they have had their titles revoked? I don't think so. Our National competition would be a sadder one without the NZ contingent such as Dalewool and Pelorus Trust.

Instead of thinking of interstate bands as a threat to a state competition, how about thinking of it as an opportunity to lift your game? Many bands are well in their comfort zone in their state championships and a visiting band can give them a well needed shake up which enhances playing, musicianship and the spirit of competition as well as adding excitement for the audiences. And having a screened adjudication only serves to ensure that it is a fair judgement (theoretically) regardless of from what state the band hails. SABA would welcome interstate concert bands with open arms to give our state bands an opportunity for a real heated up competition, particularly in B grade for both brass and concert. Not every band can afford to travel to Nationals every year to have the opportunity to compete against interstate bands - especially when they occur in states across the other side of the country (Unley included) and this can disadvantage bands greatly with the lack of experience in contesting. The opportunity for UCB to go to Ballarat (only an 8 hour drive) benefited our band greatly from a musical perspective and this is really the spirit of the whole competition. The whole reason for even contesting in the first place. I would hate to deny another band that opportunity.

I apologise for rabbiting on for so long....

Nicole - Unley Concert Band

I don't wish to pick a fight with anyone, i'm truly sorry if anyone thinks that I am. I was just questioning the principle of the matter. Sorry if my good intentions offended anyone. I won't speak to the VBL at this stage, I'll mull it over for a little while first.

Again I'm sorry, I just wanted to know why these things are allowed to happen. I guess it's for the good of the bands that these things are allowed. Not only does it allow for more competition, there's never enough bands competing, but it also raises the standards of the bands. But one thing that I do think should happen is that each band should stay in the one section for a full 12 months and not change sections throughout the year no matter what state they come from. But that topic is for another time.

At Nationals last year there was an overseas band competing in B garde concert band section and they were not allowed to win or place.

Anyway I'm happy to have the competition, and I definately do not see other bands as a threat, just as the competition. I really enjoy hearing other bands in our section and am truly greatful that we have other bands to compete against as sometimes it's just us in the section and we're competing against ourselves, what sort of competition is that.

I hope out of all this that there's no bad feelings between SACB and Unley.
But I'm still all for the principle of the matter. I'll leave this be just for the time being.

-Donna.

I wish to make clear to one and all who read this forum, that at NO TIME are any of my opinions or views that of the Southern Area Concert Band. All of the opinions and points that I have raised in the past and in the future on this forum are and will be my own 100% and I am sorry if at any time anyone has thought otherwise as that was never my inttention. The fact that "I" wanted to contact the VBL regarding some of my issues also was NEVER an idea of the SACB. It was merely to clear up some issues that I had and at no time was I intending to do this on behalf of the SACB or even mention them in conversation with the VBL.

It annoys me slightly that anyone would think that my opions are also those of the SACB. It makes me feel that I cannot even speak my opinion on a subject matter to which I am passionate about.

Therefore, my opinions shall become limited.... eeerrrrr. What is the world coming to if you cannot speak your own mind without others thinking that it's on behalf of someone else. Do I really need to make this clear everytime I raise an opinion.

-Donna.
(slightly annoyed)

Wow - our first somewhat heated discussion!

Am interested to see what other members have to say about this! And more so if any of the relevant state band assoc's reps on here jump in as well!!!

Very interesting discussion! The very purpose of the forum guys!

My personal 2 bob -

I have no worries about bands competing interstate! my query is the discrepancy between grading over the different states, for eg, is an A grade band in WA up to the same standard as an A grade band in NSW / VIC? That leads to my old favourite bugbear about national grading systems, but thats a discussion for another post!!

Its a logisitical nightmare getting our band to travel 4 hrs to Sydney for state, let alone interstate for comps. Hats off to those who do!